reveiwing the discussion
Lets examine all of this – because I think that something is finally happening in your heads (not to say that other things don’t).
My responses are in colour.
Raph said...
So I started looking at blogs again, since I now have an internet connection!Studies, ahhh studies, the subject i used to love to hate. why? because it had probelms! Now studies has another problem! Attendanec of students! interesting! This isn't the first time i have heard about students not turning up to studies class! So why don't people turn up ? who cares! Well someone must if there is disscusion about it! so what to do! Nothing I say. Sit and do nothing! let them not turn up! let them miss out!I had a disscussion recently with one of the lecturers from the "old School" of thought on industrial design education. He raised some interesting points about studies. He feels that its not entirely releveant to design! he feels that it is totally dispicable that his second year students are not aware of most apsects of the business of design. He feels that design studies should be studying design from the perspective of actually studying design and things related to design - one example being contracts - yes by studying something along those lines we could learnt something from studies, something that has a foreseeable use in our design carrers!
Point One: Why should you (as second years need to be “ware of most apsects of the business of design” – you have your whole working life to become aware.
Point Two: You are aware of contracts – you made a learning contract – which for many you have not yet honored.
Point Three: 1).“foreseeable careers” – what does this mean in the context of design education. In design education (especially in design studies) you bring the content, you pick the topic, you do the investigation – so if what you are choosing to study is irrelevant to your “foreseeable careers” – then surely that is your problem- it is your choice. 2)are you actively “foreseeing” what your career in design will be – or are you allowing others to tell you what that should be?
Now on one hand i agreed with him, on the other is do see the value of studies as it is today, a class that no one turns up 2! Maybe a balance is needed between what is learnt in studies. Many feel what occurs in studies at the moment is a waste of time. Talk to people and you will of course get varying response as to how bad studies is - although you probably can't talk to anyone about it since the attendance of the class must be hitting an all time low. In the grand scheme of things is studies really of any value to people as designers? some would argue yes, others no. Me well i can see both sides - although i think i like studies the way it is, as when i do turn up i learnt and expand on the most valuable skill one can have as a designer, which is the art of talking, writing, debating and bullshitting to get by, admit it though, it is studies that gets pushed to the back of the pile everytime that another assignment from another subject comes along and don't forget for the last 2 fridays you have been hung over or very very tired, so have decided to be apathetic and said bugger it i'll take the day off and waste my money! Cause its my money and i'll do what i want with it!
Point 4: Self direction and self determination – Raph has it and realizes that it his choice. So is is taking responsibility with his idea of what is meaning full to him – and will be guided by those choices – some things will be open to him and other won’t – but it is his conscious choice and he is not “blaming” others.
Tan said...
It's very simple actually. People don't turn up because a) they find it irrelevant to designb) they find it boringc) they can get excellent marks without getting out of bed on Friday mornings.I can attribute point c) to the peer review assessment process, which, in my opinion is a complete and shameless cop-out by the lecturers, who want us to write these essays but can't be bothered reading them (no offence). I recall last year I spent an enormous amount of time and effort piecing together this brilliant essay and what happened? The 'lecturers' were too lazy to even read them, so they got us to read each others' and they gave it this cute name, 'peer assessment'. Riiiight...No wonder why the attendance is so low.
Point 5: What is Irrelevant to design?- this statement is predicated on a decision that design is one thing – one practice that is more relevant than others – if only the world was this simple! How can you judge what is Relevant when you have spent all of a year and a half studying it?
Are you going to let other people tell you what is relevant to YOUR design practice – where is the intellectual rigour in this, where is the sense of self worth, where is the confidence in just exploring ideas?
Design studies is not about telling you what is relevant – it is about giving you opportunities to find your own path – to make your own meaning.
Point 6: “It’s Boring” – it’s Your work that is discussed and examined – so if it is so boring isn’t that a symptom of your collective disposition?
Point 7: Peer Assessment – Tan I am afraid you really don’t get this – so here it is again – Peer assessment is not a cop out by your lecturers – a cop out is looking at what you work looks like and sticking a mark on it – or making a judgment on who the lecturer thinks you are and sticking a mark on you.
Peer assessment is a way of you interacting with the content that other bring – of broadening you potential understandings.
It is also a way of your work and your ideas being pulled into a greater cultural discourse (building a culture of ideas and practice).
And yes we do read them – and we give you multiple opportunities to refine and draft and make your ideas sing – If you were doing an engineering degree (or some such) you would have no option in this – the work you submit would be it – no feedback – no mechanism for review.
Haley said...
I agree peer assessment was one of the worse things to ever happen, really in the end no one is honest and people just lie. Really we can ignore the problem of attendance and just be thankful that people do turn up at all. If it’s our money to waste then let us waste it, if we don’t want to value studies as part of design let us sneer at it and focus our time on something better and more relevant.
Point 8: Opening up your ideas to other people is hard – being honest isn’t. So why is there a culture of dishonesty – why do you lie? Are you so scared of saying something?” Are you so scared of taking a position? Why?
We laugh at you Liam when your back is turned, we dislike what you turn designers into there is no guilt in fuelling consumption, or thinking about the worth of a product within culture and society I want to make my money, and making something that looks hot and is innovative will do that, not looking into design literature let me just spoon feed people, when they have the product why should I care about their lives and what the do with the product. Designers are not bad people, not just anybody can do Industrial Design, I won’t listen to all that crazy talk you deliver and Industrial Design is not dead!
Point 9: I agree Industrial design is not dead – but is absolutely isn’t what it was ten years ago. The world has changed. Industrial design needs a new meaning – so your job is to construct that meaning – are you doing that?
Point 10: designers are not bad people – but they can be stupid people and mean people, and careless people – like any one else.
The thing about this is that industrial design is about people (and material in peoples lives) – so what type of person do you want to be? Are you practicing that in your design work?
Those weirdo’s who actually want to listen to you aren’t really designers, I’ll put them in a category of ‘different’ look at their work it’s strange it will never sell, and if it did it would be a waste of money. I know what design is and for one thing it’s sure not studies and its sure not something which looks handmade or a one off piece.
Point 11: (ouspensky aside) – we are all designers – I am a product designer – but I am also an educator. You are all designers – but you are also students – University is not industry and never can be. So the context is different – and that is fine.
Tan said...
Gee that's a bit harsh Haley! Although I can't say that I agree with everything you say. Despite my low attendance, I think that understanding where a product lies within culture is hugely important to our careers. I believe that design is not about selling products to pay the bills, but rather about improving our quality of life.
Point 12: Tan – Haley is playing devils advocate – she is winding you up – and yet you agree.
Although I didn't attend the class when the topic you mentioned was spoken about, from what I gather, there seems to be a bit of a mixup between design and art. Fine arts is (arguably) superfluous and a lot of it is bullshit from people who believe they are creative. For example, the cane thing you guys (I walked out as soon as I found out what we were doing) made at the start of the semester is not design, but art. I once saw written above a toilet roll in a public toilet "Fine arts degrees: please take one." This isn't to say that all artists are hacks, I'm sure there are many skilled artists who are brilliant at what they do. But then again one could argue that "fine artist" is an oxymoron. Whatever the case, we should draw a clear barrier between design and art.So here's the place of fine arts in social context: It is selfish and is limited to the paintings on our walls, or the vases on our shelves. Design builds culture and improves our quality of life
POINT 13: Irrational statements:
A] Who are you to determine what fine art is? Are you an artist?
B] Vases are the domain of Industrial design not fine art.
C] “Design builds culture and improves our quality of life” – the quality of who’s life? What culture (do you mean consumer culture?)? For what purpose? At what expense (environment, debt, materialism)?
D] A Completely naive understanding of Art: Art is not about the object anymore – it is not even about the idea of the artist – it is about the practice /making / thinking of art (sound just like design) – so if fine art is an oxymoron – perhaps industrial design is simply moronic?
Ok so the problem with all of this is that your take on things is completely screwed up – and deeply conservative – and based on complete fantasy and lionizing of and idea of what being and industrial designer is. Stop and listen to what you are saying about yourselves.
Think about where your ideas and statements are coming from – are they yours? Or are you simply regurgitating other peoples myth of what design is?
My responses are in colour.
Raph said...
So I started looking at blogs again, since I now have an internet connection!Studies, ahhh studies, the subject i used to love to hate. why? because it had probelms! Now studies has another problem! Attendanec of students! interesting! This isn't the first time i have heard about students not turning up to studies class! So why don't people turn up ? who cares! Well someone must if there is disscusion about it! so what to do! Nothing I say. Sit and do nothing! let them not turn up! let them miss out!I had a disscussion recently with one of the lecturers from the "old School" of thought on industrial design education. He raised some interesting points about studies. He feels that its not entirely releveant to design! he feels that it is totally dispicable that his second year students are not aware of most apsects of the business of design. He feels that design studies should be studying design from the perspective of actually studying design and things related to design - one example being contracts - yes by studying something along those lines we could learnt something from studies, something that has a foreseeable use in our design carrers!
Point One: Why should you (as second years need to be “ware of most apsects of the business of design” – you have your whole working life to become aware.
Point Two: You are aware of contracts – you made a learning contract – which for many you have not yet honored.
Point Three: 1).“foreseeable careers” – what does this mean in the context of design education. In design education (especially in design studies) you bring the content, you pick the topic, you do the investigation – so if what you are choosing to study is irrelevant to your “foreseeable careers” – then surely that is your problem- it is your choice. 2)are you actively “foreseeing” what your career in design will be – or are you allowing others to tell you what that should be?
Now on one hand i agreed with him, on the other is do see the value of studies as it is today, a class that no one turns up 2! Maybe a balance is needed between what is learnt in studies. Many feel what occurs in studies at the moment is a waste of time. Talk to people and you will of course get varying response as to how bad studies is - although you probably can't talk to anyone about it since the attendance of the class must be hitting an all time low. In the grand scheme of things is studies really of any value to people as designers? some would argue yes, others no. Me well i can see both sides - although i think i like studies the way it is, as when i do turn up i learnt and expand on the most valuable skill one can have as a designer, which is the art of talking, writing, debating and bullshitting to get by, admit it though, it is studies that gets pushed to the back of the pile everytime that another assignment from another subject comes along and don't forget for the last 2 fridays you have been hung over or very very tired, so have decided to be apathetic and said bugger it i'll take the day off and waste my money! Cause its my money and i'll do what i want with it!
Point 4: Self direction and self determination – Raph has it and realizes that it his choice. So is is taking responsibility with his idea of what is meaning full to him – and will be guided by those choices – some things will be open to him and other won’t – but it is his conscious choice and he is not “blaming” others.
Tan said...
It's very simple actually. People don't turn up because a) they find it irrelevant to designb) they find it boringc) they can get excellent marks without getting out of bed on Friday mornings.I can attribute point c) to the peer review assessment process, which, in my opinion is a complete and shameless cop-out by the lecturers, who want us to write these essays but can't be bothered reading them (no offence). I recall last year I spent an enormous amount of time and effort piecing together this brilliant essay and what happened? The 'lecturers' were too lazy to even read them, so they got us to read each others' and they gave it this cute name, 'peer assessment'. Riiiight...No wonder why the attendance is so low.
Point 5: What is Irrelevant to design?- this statement is predicated on a decision that design is one thing – one practice that is more relevant than others – if only the world was this simple! How can you judge what is Relevant when you have spent all of a year and a half studying it?
Are you going to let other people tell you what is relevant to YOUR design practice – where is the intellectual rigour in this, where is the sense of self worth, where is the confidence in just exploring ideas?
Design studies is not about telling you what is relevant – it is about giving you opportunities to find your own path – to make your own meaning.
Point 6: “It’s Boring” – it’s Your work that is discussed and examined – so if it is so boring isn’t that a symptom of your collective disposition?
Point 7: Peer Assessment – Tan I am afraid you really don’t get this – so here it is again – Peer assessment is not a cop out by your lecturers – a cop out is looking at what you work looks like and sticking a mark on it – or making a judgment on who the lecturer thinks you are and sticking a mark on you.
Peer assessment is a way of you interacting with the content that other bring – of broadening you potential understandings.
It is also a way of your work and your ideas being pulled into a greater cultural discourse (building a culture of ideas and practice).
And yes we do read them – and we give you multiple opportunities to refine and draft and make your ideas sing – If you were doing an engineering degree (or some such) you would have no option in this – the work you submit would be it – no feedback – no mechanism for review.
Haley said...
I agree peer assessment was one of the worse things to ever happen, really in the end no one is honest and people just lie. Really we can ignore the problem of attendance and just be thankful that people do turn up at all. If it’s our money to waste then let us waste it, if we don’t want to value studies as part of design let us sneer at it and focus our time on something better and more relevant.
Point 8: Opening up your ideas to other people is hard – being honest isn’t. So why is there a culture of dishonesty – why do you lie? Are you so scared of saying something?” Are you so scared of taking a position? Why?
We laugh at you Liam when your back is turned, we dislike what you turn designers into there is no guilt in fuelling consumption, or thinking about the worth of a product within culture and society I want to make my money, and making something that looks hot and is innovative will do that, not looking into design literature let me just spoon feed people, when they have the product why should I care about their lives and what the do with the product. Designers are not bad people, not just anybody can do Industrial Design, I won’t listen to all that crazy talk you deliver and Industrial Design is not dead!
Point 9: I agree Industrial design is not dead – but is absolutely isn’t what it was ten years ago. The world has changed. Industrial design needs a new meaning – so your job is to construct that meaning – are you doing that?
Point 10: designers are not bad people – but they can be stupid people and mean people, and careless people – like any one else.
The thing about this is that industrial design is about people (and material in peoples lives) – so what type of person do you want to be? Are you practicing that in your design work?
Those weirdo’s who actually want to listen to you aren’t really designers, I’ll put them in a category of ‘different’ look at their work it’s strange it will never sell, and if it did it would be a waste of money. I know what design is and for one thing it’s sure not studies and its sure not something which looks handmade or a one off piece.
Point 11: (ouspensky aside) – we are all designers – I am a product designer – but I am also an educator. You are all designers – but you are also students – University is not industry and never can be. So the context is different – and that is fine.
Tan said...
Gee that's a bit harsh Haley! Although I can't say that I agree with everything you say. Despite my low attendance, I think that understanding where a product lies within culture is hugely important to our careers. I believe that design is not about selling products to pay the bills, but rather about improving our quality of life.
Point 12: Tan – Haley is playing devils advocate – she is winding you up – and yet you agree.
Although I didn't attend the class when the topic you mentioned was spoken about, from what I gather, there seems to be a bit of a mixup between design and art. Fine arts is (arguably) superfluous and a lot of it is bullshit from people who believe they are creative. For example, the cane thing you guys (I walked out as soon as I found out what we were doing) made at the start of the semester is not design, but art. I once saw written above a toilet roll in a public toilet "Fine arts degrees: please take one." This isn't to say that all artists are hacks, I'm sure there are many skilled artists who are brilliant at what they do. But then again one could argue that "fine artist" is an oxymoron. Whatever the case, we should draw a clear barrier between design and art.So here's the place of fine arts in social context: It is selfish and is limited to the paintings on our walls, or the vases on our shelves. Design builds culture and improves our quality of life
POINT 13: Irrational statements:
A] Who are you to determine what fine art is? Are you an artist?
B] Vases are the domain of Industrial design not fine art.
C] “Design builds culture and improves our quality of life” – the quality of who’s life? What culture (do you mean consumer culture?)? For what purpose? At what expense (environment, debt, materialism)?
D] A Completely naive understanding of Art: Art is not about the object anymore – it is not even about the idea of the artist – it is about the practice /making / thinking of art (sound just like design) – so if fine art is an oxymoron – perhaps industrial design is simply moronic?
Ok so the problem with all of this is that your take on things is completely screwed up – and deeply conservative – and based on complete fantasy and lionizing of and idea of what being and industrial designer is. Stop and listen to what you are saying about yourselves.
Think about where your ideas and statements are coming from – are they yours? Or are you simply regurgitating other peoples myth of what design is?
posted by Liam Fennessy at 9:48 SA
1 Comments:
If design is truly what we can make of it following our own interests and using the skills which excite us so that we are so deeply immersed all sense of time is lost. It’s like when you sit down and thinking for hours seemingly getting nowhere with no real outcome to show but as a person you feel different. Like the discussions at the community meeting felt as though nothing was really achieved but in a deeper sense it was. It’s all based upon feelings not only understandings.
I don’t feel I trust or understand myself to follow only my ideas of what design is, I know that I do have extreme motivation and get so caught up and entangled with things, but I am afraid to dream and say that at the end of this course if what and who I want to be doesn’t exist then I’ll go off and create it show others the need of my work and create value from something that is seen as a waste of time previously.
Like art the value in art is so controversial but the artist who creates it gives it meaning then that meaning is torn apart by others searched for value, some is found by others will reinterpret and give it their own meaning and value and others despise it saying it’s a waste of time and money. ‘
Though maybe with the remaining 5 semesters I can change, to find faith that my work can hold some sort of value out there somewhere. I know that I am still to afraid to let go and become my own person. To live a life with out value that can be seen by others is so demeaning often within the position I am I know that I am different to others and am very hard to understand. Though my true fear is to graduating finding out that all I really value within my life and as a designer is not shared by any body else then it would truly have been a waste of four years of time and thousands of dollars.
I fear responsibility as well, I don’t like been placed above others or in control and like every human I fear the unknowing. With the uniqueness of this course catering for all interests I find it so hard to trust myself and let go and do what I enjoy doing, there is the chance that I’ll just stick with what I already know and what I am comfortable with so there be no learning. But at the same time by not choosing an easy way the anxiety increases there is a greater increase in failing. I can fail in uni but I am not prepared to go out there and fail in the real world so maybe that is what’s holding me back.
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